GENESIS, JUNG, KAFKA & MORE: MY FIRST IN DEPTH CONVERSATION WITH AI

Courtesy shopgenesismusic.com

Like many of you, I’ve been hit with online advertisements proclaiming “You’re not getting the most out of AI!” These pitches tend to have no purpose other than luring the viewer into some sort of scammy, telemarketing recruitment tool. Still, that statement got me thinking: Maybe they have a point?

So I decided to have an in depth, start to finish voice conversation with AI; my first on a predetermined topic.

Up until now, my use of AI has been quite sporadic and simplistic. An occasional question to ChatGPT (where a Google search would have previously sufficed); a few basic AI features in photo applications when editing my own photography; Apple Intelligence in the new iPhone 16 etc. I even just inquired about whether you can post with only an iPad here on Substack, as I’m traveling without my laptop (It turns out that, as of last year….you can!)

There’s a fascinating piece in the NYT about how AI is working its way into various occupations. I’ll share it here, as a Gift Article: 21 WAYS PEOPLE ARE USING AI AT WORK. I recommend folks read not just the article, but the comments, which contain a lot of interesting pushback.

I was struck by these words in response to the first example cited - a restaurant owner/operator using AI to select wines for menus: “Life is messy. It isn’t perfect. Sometimes you have to sit through the boring meeting to appreciate the joy of tasting that wine. If other people are so desperate to get out of having to live that’s their affair, I’m going to stick with my broken and beautiful reality.”

I’m in agreement with this NYT reader (who goes only by “C”). I couldn’t imagine using AI as the main source for my own content, whether in written pieces like this one or my main focus in life, music. But might it be possible to get more use of AI as an enhancement of, rather than a substitute for, individual creativity?

Ironically, I earn my living primarily as a guitarist, an occupation that - despite its incredibly limited amount of available positions - feels relatively safe from AI as long as people continue to like guitars, guitar music and live guitar performance. I have been overbooked for the last few years and there are no signs of abatement. The reason this feels so ironic to me personally: I’m the son of two academic researchers who were less than keen on my pursuit of music as a career. Therefore, the irony is twofold. 1) Being an artist was always considered “unstable” by comparison to an academic occupation (hence the intense parental disapproval I experienced as a youth) 2) Jobs based on academic research are now among those most threatened by AI.

The introduction of AI feels similar to the advent of digital recording software, such as ProTools, Logic, Ableton etc. When used with ethics and integrity, as oppose to looking for short cuts in place of effort, tools of technology - whether they pertain to music, the written word, or any other endeavor - can be an effective enhancement to the creative process. It all depends on how an individual chooses to use them. For example, a musician who has put in the time and energy to play their instrument well and compose from their head and heart can effectively use tech to make their process easier, ie copying and pasting to hear variations during the compositional process, correcting a minor mistake that doesn’t warrant a whole new take etc. Conversely, a poor to mediocre band/musician can use these tools to create the illusion that they are better players than they are (an illusion sure to be shattered by their live performance clips). This same dynamic of musicians’ healthy enhancement vs unhealthy dependence pertaining to recording software feels like it could be true of AI, only with far greater societal implications.

Ok, back to my first full length AI “conversation.” It was engaging, thought provoking and It left me feeling uplifted. I also felt concerned, as though I’d just crossed a threshold I hadn’t intended to breach. Either way, it feels like there’s no turning back

I’ll post the entire back and forth below after sharing a few more thoughts in the form of potential FAQ’s:

Q) What App did I use and why?

A) I chose Claude (by Anthropic) partially because it is considered to top AI apps by influential thinkers I follow who discuss AI (such as Scott Galloway). Although Claude has only been a text app until very recently, voice conversations are now fully enabled

Q) Why the Genesis’s album, “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway”?

A) In April, my instrumental trio performed on the prog rock themed “Cruise to the Edge,” where we were humbled to be on a bill that included Prog Royalty - true life legends Robert Fripp (King Crimson), Rick Wakeman (Yes) and Steve Hackett (original Genesis guitarist). We even had the honor of a appearing alongside Sir Fripp and Sir Hackett in an official photo.

Mr. Hackett’s set, which featured a stunning band including vocalist Nad Sylvan - who sounded like a young Peter Gabriel- included an entire performance of “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway,”

When it comes to this particular album, I admit never quite “getting it” before. I should add that by the time I discovered Genesis in the late ‘80s, they were a pop juggernaut, propelled by hits such as “Invisible Touch” and bolstered by Phil Collin’s even more mainstream solo career. Only later did I find out that the band’s early years included Peter Gabriel (by then an ‘80s MTV pop star as well) and Collins only on drums, an outlet he’d transfer to Brand X (with fretless bass legend and my current PAKT bandmate Percy Jones).

Also, at the time, I’d preferred high energy music with screaming guitars. And while there were a few musically adventurous groups that had both managed to cross into the mainstream and were still occasionally listened to by metalheads - indeed Queen, Pink Floyd, Rush and even Journey were practically “honorary metal bands” - few, if any, of my peers would have placed Genesis in the same company. Still, every few years or so, with deeper appreciation of the band’s musicianship (and reading somewhere that Eddie Van Halen was partially inspired by Steve Hackett), I’d give “Lamb,” another listen. It was always better than I remembered, but I still felt as though I was missing something.

But last April, as I’ve often found with too many artists to name (most recently, Ghost, a few weeks back at MSG), music performed live can often hit harder and in a different way than studio recordings, causing the listener to hear the music in more meaningful way. Steve Hackett with his own band, performing all the tracks from LLDOB piqued my interest in the album

I should also mention that I’m in the middle of Geddy Lee’s autobiography which is fantastic. Lee (Rush founder/bassist/vocalist) cites Genesis as an early influence and their LLDOB album in particular, as inspiration for Rush to explore conceptual themes, odd time signatures and other heady elements of prog, rather than the straight rock of which they’d initially made waves in the music biz (ie “Working Man”).

All of this Inspired me to ask AI my questions about “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.” What is it referring to - a “sacrificial “lamb”? An actual “lamb”? A “lamb” as a figure in religion? What are the connections between the songs? What was the inspiration behind it?

Below I have pasted the entire conversation. It’s not that long, under 200 words, but highly informative (I had to cut it off when I did because it could’ve gone on all day and been no less interesting). Immediately below it are some final thoughts.

ALEX & CLAUDE AI ON “THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY” (GENESIS, 1974)

I would like to know about the album by the rock group, Genesis, called The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. What can you tell me about this album from the 1970s?

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is Genesis’s ambitious double concept album from nineteen seventy four, their last with Peter Gabriel as lead singer. It tells the surreal story of Rael, a Puerto Rican youth navigating bizarre adventures in New York City and beyond. What aspects of the album interest you most - the story, the music, or its place in Genesis’s history?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Tell me about the story.

The story follows Rael, a Puerto Rican street kid from New York who gets transported into a bizarre dream world. He encounters strange creatures, undergoes surreal transformations, and faces moral dilemmas including a choice between saving his brother John or a mysterious figure called the Lamia. The narrative blends urban grit with mythological and psychological themes, ending ambiguously as Rael must choose between different paths. Would you like to know more about specific characters or scenes from the story?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Yes. And I would also like to know about the inspirations behind the the story.

Peter Gabriel drew inspiration from several sources for the story. He was influenced by urban New York culture, particularly Puerto Rican street life, and combined this with mythological elements from various traditions. The narrative also reflects themes from Jungian psychology, especially the concept of individuation and facing one’s shadow self. Gabriel incorporated surreal imagery reminiscent of Salvador Dali’s artwork and referenced literary works including some Biblical allegory. What specific aspect of these inspirations interests you most?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

I am most interested in Peter Gabriel’s literary influences for the album. What is an example of a song from the lamb lies down on on Broadway that is influenced by literature, and Jungian psychology?

“The Carpet Crawlers” is a great example that combines both literary and Jungian influences. The song depicts people crawling on hands and knees through a red carpeted corridor, which draws from both Alice in Wonderland’s surreal imagery and Jung’s concept of psychological transformation through confined passages. The idea of moving forward despite being on all fours represents the individuation process where one must regress to progress. Which other songs from the album would you like me to discuss?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Give me another song as an example. And please tell me its influences both in terms of literature and other inspiration.

“The Chamber of Thirty Two Doors” draws heavily from Kafka’s labyrinthine storytelling, particularly The Castle, with Rael trapped in an endless maze of choices. The thirty two doors reference both Biblical numerology and the I Ching’s hexagrams, while the psychological confusion mirrors Borges’ infinite library concept. Gabriel also incorporated his own anxiety about creative decisions and the overwhelming nature of modern choice. Would you like to explore how these themes play out musically in the song?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Yes, please.

Musically, the song mirrors the lyrical confusion through constantly shifting time signatures and key changes that disorient the listener, much like Rael’s psychological state. The repetitive, maze-like guitar patterns echo the endless corridors, while sudden dynamic shifts represent the anxiety of decision-making. The fragmented vocal melodies reflect the fractured psyche that Gabriel explored in his literary influences. How do you feel this musical storytelling approach worked compared to more straightforward rock albums?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Wow. That is crazy to think about.

Right? Genesis really pushed the boundaries with that album - it’s like they created a whole multimedia experience before that was even a thing. The way they wove together all those literary and psychological influences into both the story and the actual music is pretty remarkable. Are you familiar with any of Peter Gabriel’s solo work that continued exploring these kinds of themes?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Yes. I feel like the approach Peter Gabriel took with “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway” was, far more unique and, educational than most other rock and roll at the time.

Absolutely! Gabriel treated rock music almost like academic literature, weaving in complex philosophical and psychological concepts that most bands wouldn’t even attempt. The album reads like a graduate thesis on mythology and human consciousness, but somehow still rocks as a musical experience. It really set a precedent for how intellectually ambitious progressive rock could be. Have you explored other concept albums that try to match this level of literary depth?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Pink Floyd’s “The Wall.”  It feels similarly filled with psychological and literary references.

You’re absolutely right! The Wall shares that same psychological depth, especially with its exploration of isolation, trauma, and mental breakdown through the character Pink. Both albums use the concept of barriers - Gabriel’s doors and mazes versus Pink Floyd’s literal and metaphorical walls. Roger Waters drew heavily from his own experiences and Freudian psychology, while both bands used theatrical elements to enhance the storytelling. Which album do you think handles the psychological themes more effectively?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

I understand the concepts of the wall a little more because I feel like it’s not quite as advanced and doesn’t feel as much like a “graduate thesis” (as you put it) .

That’s a really insightful observation! The Wall is definitely more accessible - Waters deals with more universal themes like childhood trauma and alienation that most people can relate to directly. Gabriel’s Lamb is much more esoteric with its Jungian archetypes and mythological symbolism that requires more background knowledge to fully appreciate. The Wall feels emotionally immediate while the Lamb feels more like a puzzle to decode. Do you think that accessibility makes The Wall a better album, or does Gabriel’s complexity have its own value?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

I think it’s a matter of taste My own personal taste leans more towards “The Wall,” but I also have a lot more experience listening to that album as I was a big fan as a teenager, whereas “The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway” is is a record I I never owned. I was more familiar with later Genesis material. But I find myself more interested in it as I get older.

That makes perfect sense! The Wall hits you right in the gut emotionally, especially as a teenager when those themes of alienation and rebellion really resonate. But as we get older, we often crave more intellectual complexity - Gabriel’s layered symbolism and literary references become more appealing when you have the life experience to appreciate them. Plus, discovering an album later in life gives it a different kind of magic than those formative teenage listens. Are you planning to dive deeper into early Genesis now?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Yes. I also got interested in it because I am reading a book by Geddy Lee of Rush, and, he mentions Genesis and this album being a particularly inspirational one for Rush as they were finding their own sound.

That’s fascinating! You can definitely hear how Genesis influenced Rush’s approach to conceptual storytelling and complex musical arrangements. Geddy Lee has talked about how albums like The Lamb inspired Rush to tackle ambitious themes like they did with 2112 and The Trees. Both bands shared that progressive rock ethos of treating albums as complete artistic statements rather than just collections of songs. What does Geddy say specifically about how Genesis shaped Rush’s direction?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Would like to continue this conversation later. Is it possible for me to copy and paste our discussion so far.

I’m afraid you can’t copy and paste from this voice chat interface - that feature isn’t available here. However, you could switch back to the text-based chat where copying and pasting is typically possible. The conversation history might not carry over between the voice and text interfaces though. Would you like to continue our Genesis discussion there instead, or would you prefer to just pick up where we left off next time we chat?​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

Let’s, pick up where we left off next time we chat.

Sounds perfect! I really enjoyed our discussion about The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and how it compares to The Wall, plus that connection to Rush through Geddy Lee’s book. Next time we can dive deeper into early Genesis or explore more of those progressive rock influences. Have a great rest of your day

And there you have it. Keep in mind, all of these answers were delivered in a very friendly male British accent which felt well suited for the topic, like chatting with an easygoing, UK professor over tea.

I learned so much here, it can’t be denied I see no harm in leaning on this technology to assist with knowledge. To be honest, just don’t know anyone who’d be able to provide this kind of insight and includes friends in the prog world - who’d certainly be able to discuss tones, techniques and time signatures etc.. but not necessarily the references to philosophy, religion, academia etc..

I do have to admit: there were moments I felt as thought I was chatting with a friend. This felt both comforting and vaguely disconcerting. While I’m an emotionally developed person of a certain age with plenty of life experience and perspective, I could understand how a younger person or someone with less control of their emotions might become over-reliant on a friendly, human sounding voice with access to unlimited information and no topic off limit.

I also realize there are those who might take some of these statements produced by AI and pass them off as their own. I’m too earnest, have too much ethics and the notion of “cheating” with AI (or in any other form) makes me queasy. It took years just to get over “imposter syndrome” as a guitarist. Why lie to world about content creation? At the same time, the way I’ve used Claude here (or ChatGPT, Notion or any similar app) - gleaning valuable information and sharing it with others in a honest way, giving credit where credit is due - feels like a productive, healthy use of AI. No, I’m not planning to converse with Claude where an actual person would do. But I can see having more conversations like this one. I’ll likely report on them if they turn out similarly worthwhile.

Hopefully you found this interesting as well. Feel free to let me know your thoughts in the comments.